Simplicity Zen Podcast Episode 1: An Interview with Corey Hess 

Youtube Video:

Audio Versions:

Please enjoy this Simplicity Zen Podcast where we talk to Corey Hess about his experience training with Rinzai Zen. This is our first episode the “Zen Lamp” podcast series. Corey leads the Internal Process with Corey Hess Facebook community and specializes in internal process work, including QiGong, Zhan Zhuang, Non-Directed Body Movement, and meditation. He lived in Japan Sogenji which is a traditional Rinzai Zen under renowned Zen master Harada Roshi.

For more about Corey:

• http://coreyhessbodytherapy.com/
• https://www.facebook.com/groups/21610…
• https://zenembodiment.com/

Interview Transcript

Berry Crawford 

Hi Corey, thank you for joining us. 

Corey Hess 

Hi Barry, thanks for having me. 

Berry Crawford 

Yeah, so this is my inaugural podcast and I’m happy to have Corey as my first guest. He’s someone I’ve long admired to the Facebook’s in world. 

Berry Crawford 

He’s been very gracious with his time and chatting with me over the years of giving me advice and insight, and I’m excited to talk about it. 

Berry Crawford 

Here and learn more about his web journey. 

Berry Crawford 

I mean his own journey. 

Berry Crawford 

Corey, could you talk a little bit about? 

Berry Crawford 

The work you do now what your relationship is in is the energy work that you do just to create a little bit of context of who you are and what your relationship is in is and kind of what you’re doing these days. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah great yeah yeah again thanks for having me. 

Corey Hess 

Well, I would say I’m a Zen priest and. 

Corey Hess 

I was ordained. 

Corey Hess 

’cause that was 2004 something like that, but I would say my work now is very much a, uh. 

Corey Hess 

Still, uh, fruition of all of that and. 

Corey Hess 

Lately what I’ve. 

Corey Hess 

Been doing is I’m I’m leading these. 

Corey Hess 

Classes and monthlong retreats. 

Corey Hess 

With this community of of practitioners. 

Corey Hess 

Kind of all over the world burn. 

Corey Hess 

Pretty fantastic. 

Corey Hess 

Most of what I’m teaching these days is standing meditation in a few different forms and dumb. 

Corey Hess 

I found these extremely helpful in. 

Corey Hess 

My own process of getting into my practice so. 

Corey Hess 

Uh, they really get things cooking and and and so we’ve got this great community of people. 

Corey Hess 

Just it’s just really sincere group. 

Corey Hess 

People really change. 

Corey Hess 

It’s been fantastic. 

Corey Hess 

We started, you know. 

Corey Hess 

Gosh few years ago now. 

Corey Hess 

So I’m doing that and that’s about half my work, and then I do. 

Corey Hess 

I still do kind of healing work, physical healing, work in my office, do distance. 

Corey Hess 

Uhm, stuff which I never would have thought to do until the pandemic hit and then I had to kind of. 

Corey Hess 

Bring that gear out. 

Corey Hess 

And then you know, I I, I do little zoom calls talking with people about their process and meditation and energetic stuff. 

Corey Hess 

So, so yeah, that’s that’s mostly what I’m doing. 

Corey Hess 

These I’m a dad. 

Corey Hess 

I have a my my wife is a big theater person here on the island and. 

Corey Hess 

In supporting her and dad, that’s a lot. 

Corey Hess 

Of what I? 

Berry Crawford 

Do you’re in a? 

Berry Crawford 

Are you in Wiggly Island? 

Berry Crawford 

Washington still is, that is that where you guys live. 

Corey Hess 

Yep, Yep, we’d be weird Langley Uber cute Langley, you know. 

Berry Crawford 

Is that is that pretty rural or is. 

Berry Crawford 

That, like the suburban world up there. 

Berry Crawford 

Or what’s that like? 

Corey Hess 

Well, that’s a good question, right? 

Corey Hess 

I mean, it seems like in in a way it’s kind of all all suburban Seattle. 

Corey Hess 

Now you know. 

Corey Hess 

You know people do commute from South Whidbey to like Boeing. 

Corey Hess 

That is something people do. 

Corey Hess 

So in that way, it’s kind of like a suburb, but you do have to take a ferry to get here unless you drive up the North End, which is an hour away. 

Corey Hess 

So, but yeah, it’s it’s. 

Corey Hess 

It has, uh, definitely. 

Corey Hess 

You take a big breath when you get on the island. 

Corey Hess 

It’s it is very relaxed here in. 

Corey Hess 

A sort of great. 

Berry Crawford 

So could you talk a little bit about? 

Berry Crawford 

Without going into too much detail about your childhood, you know what? 

Berry Crawford 

What were the kind of the major themes as they related to what kind of motivated you to get into Zen practice? 

Berry Crawford 

You know what were your? 

Berry Crawford 

Questions what were? 

Berry Crawford 

Some you know Acxiom Mic events that. 

Berry Crawford 

That led to that path. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, uhm. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, I think I think come, you know they. 

Corey Hess 

They talk about the great doubt this is a big thing in in Zen and Buddhism and. 

Corey Hess 

For me, I was a person very early. 

Corey Hess 

There were there was this aspect of of of truth that I come. 

Corey Hess 

That I knew was there and. 

Corey Hess 

Nothing that I did. 

Corey Hess 

Uhm, nothing that should have kind of felt, feel real or dumb. 

Corey Hess 

Should have felt, uh, satisfying. 

Corey Hess 

I felt like I needed to realize something I was like deeply concerned about. 

Corey Hess 

What I would do with my life. 

Corey Hess 

What I how I would. 

Berry Crawford 

Is this? 

Berry Crawford 

As a child or a teenager or. 

Corey Hess 

That’s this is as a child, so you know, like you know, like I’d be in the car with my mom and and she’d be trying to kind of coach me like you can. 

Corey Hess 

You can do whatever you want. 

Corey Hess 

You know in your life and and and I I kind of knew that, but there was this aspect even as a child where I I. 

Corey Hess 

Well, I I I was really chewing on something very early and it was it was that I just really couldn’t. 

Corey Hess 

I couldn’t live from this place that somehow intuitively knew was there and and and and so that was that was the driving much of the driving force for me, even as a kid. 

Corey Hess 

That was very that was a serious kid. 

Corey Hess 

Very sensitive, you know you see sensitive. 

Corey Hess 

You see people suffering and you. 

Corey Hess 

You you know you see elderly people suffering and you it deeply affected me. 

Corey Hess 

You see all kinds of suffering around you, even as a normal kid in the Midwest of of the states. 

Corey Hess 

I was I had. 

Corey Hess 

I had a not a special childhood at all, but somehow. 

Corey Hess 

I was chewing on something very deeply, even from an early age. 

Corey Hess 

I didn’t really have a venue to explore that. 

Berry Crawford 

Did you was your family religious, either casually or no? 

Corey Hess 

Casually, yeah, I mean we went to like you know you put your put your penny loafers on you know you go to the the Baptist Church once once a couple times a month. 

Corey Hess 

Something you know and don’t know what to do there, and it was kind of a social thing, but not really. 

Corey Hess 

Not really, I I really longed for that and I I found it in nature. 

Corey Hess 

I was we lived pretty far out in the country and so I I kind of found that in in in nature. 

Corey Hess 

Some some mystery that I that I could that I could feel into, you know? 

Berry Crawford 

Did come. 

Berry Crawford 

Did you have any like? 

Berry Crawford 

It’s the right word, you know, kind of intuitive connection to Asian culture. 

Berry Crawford 

And did you do martial arts? 

Berry Crawford 

Were you in the films, did you? 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, I love the Kung Fu films, I they really hit me. 

Corey Hess 

They really. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, resonated somehow. Yeah, I was in the basement of our house there watching, you know, I we we we want to do core I I go we go go to RadioShack and we get a, you know come food movie bring it home and I’d watch that a couple of times you know and and you know it wasn’t so much the violence for me as it was. 

Corey Hess 

That there was there was some aspect where I could someone could go and they could. 

Corey Hess 

They could train in such a way that they would transform and be able to saturate in in something a bit deeper that really appealed to me in some way. 

Berry Crawford 

How about Star Wars? 

Berry Crawford 

Was that Seminole to you at all? 

Corey Hess 

Or was yeah? 

Corey Hess 

I mean, it’s totally, totally Starwood. 

Berry Crawford 

Yeah, we got out. 

Berry Crawford 

I I think you’re younger than I am, but I think you’re still somewhat closer generation where I really wonder how much of my generation’s interest in Zen comes. 

Berry Crawford 

From you know. 

Berry Crawford 

The Jedis and you know let go Luke. 

Corey Hess 

No, completely, you know. Completely and yeah, no, we I’m I’m uh, what I’m I’m gonna be 45 next month. So uh. 

Berry Crawford 

OK, yeah, you’re four years younger than me. 

Corey Hess 

Little younger yeah? 

Corey Hess 

But but yes, very much so. 

Corey Hess 

And you know, I supposedly they took. 

Corey Hess 

I heard a couple stories, but I heard it that they took Yoda language from Yasutani Roshi. 

Corey Hess 

I heard that. 

Berry Crawford 

Oh, really, I’d never heard that. 

Berry Crawford 

That’s fascinating. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, I had thought it was Tibetan, but I I had recently heard it was yasutani. 

Corey Hess 

You know people like make up. 

Corey Hess 

It’s a good story. 

Corey Hess 

It’s a good story. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, so no. 

Corey Hess 

In in you know energy and this you know the the force and all that. 

Corey Hess 

That was very, you know, mysterious to me. 

Corey Hess 

And then there was a big sports guy and and sports for me were a they were a venue to, you know, explore. 

Corey Hess 

Again, training that was like our churches in the Midwest. 

Corey Hess 

Our church was was basketball and baseball and football and. 

Corey Hess 

And and seeing like if you really dove into something that sometimes things really opened up and. 

Berry Crawford 

Like a flow state. 

Corey Hess 

Lo stay, you talk about the zone and. 

Corey Hess 

You know there’s a lot. 

Corey Hess 

There are a lot of books on that, but I think at least they give you a taste of oh, the. 

Corey Hess 

There’s a deeper level of something going on here. 

Corey Hess 

If I can, if I can somehow get in touch with that, you know. 

Corey Hess 

So I found that in sports I found. 

Corey Hess 

Sometimes when I was playing, you know, kind of. 

Corey Hess 

Football out in the yard with a bunch of friends and everything would slow down and I could move, but it felt like nobody else could move and and and that that shook me up. 

Corey Hess 

Oh what is going on here, you know? 

Corey Hess 

Uhm so so yeah movement and the body I was and I still am so fascinated with these these energetic fields moving through space. 

Corey Hess 

I think that’s always been my kind of entry point into this. 

Berry Crawford 

Did you do any formal martial arts or Tai Chi or anything like that as a child or teenager? 

Corey Hess 

I did a little bit, but not really. 

Corey Hess 

You know, I didn’t know I was in. 

Berry Crawford 

Local everything. 

Corey Hess 

I would. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, you know. 

Corey Hess 

And it was, you know, they they asked me if they my mom think it spanked me. 

Corey Hess 

You know, if I did wrong, you know, like my mom was like, no, we’re out of here, you know. 

Corey Hess 

It was a small town Y, you know. 

Corey Hess 

So no, not too much, not too much. 

Corey Hess 

And and yeah, I think I think those sports were that for me and you see some of these beautiful athletes and what they they seem to just float, you know, seem to be connected, you know, yeah. 

Berry Crawford 

How about come as a little touchy subject or some, but either in high school or college. 

Berry Crawford 

Did you dabble in psychedelics at all? 

Berry Crawford 

To was that an influence it on your path at all? 

Corey Hess 

That was that was I, you know, and. 

Corey Hess 

Just to say like looking back, I think people who knew me after I’d gone to Japan. 

Corey Hess 

They they thought, well we wondered what was going to happen to you. 

Corey Hess 

Corey, ’cause we thought either you’d be a heroin addict or you’d or you you figure something out. 

Corey Hess 

And so I went to Japan. 

Corey Hess 

You know, I wasn’t really into too hard of stuff, but. 

Corey Hess 

But no, I I was expecting more exploration than partying. 

Berry Crawford 

More exploration than partying. 

Corey Hess 

I I was I wasn’t the best partner. 

Corey Hess 

I was a pretty pretty serious guy. 

Corey Hess 

You know it was pretty I was, you know, always the most intense person in the room you know and dumb. 

Corey Hess 

But yeah, I did did some things there in in college and and then another story for another day, perhaps is I did these I. 

Corey Hess 

I took some mushrooms at one point when I had come back from Japan and they were a big help for me. 

Corey Hess 

Actually, that’s. 

Corey Hess 

Really, yeah, yeah. 

OK. 

Berry Crawford 

So in college, did you do any sort of spiritual practice? 

Berry Crawford 

Did you meditate? 

Berry Crawford 

Did you do any Tai Chi or Kido or anything like that or? 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, uhm. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, I did get into some meditation stuff. 

Corey Hess 

I I went for a couple of years in to to school in Tallahassee, FL. 

Corey Hess 

We moved to Florida when I was 16 and so I went for a couple years in in Tallahassee and. 

Corey Hess 

At one point I did this report on it was a religious studies course and it was really, really beautiful for me and. 

Corey Hess 

And I did a report on these. 

Corey Hess 

Christmas it was awesome. 

Corey Hess 

I went there and I held their food and you know they do their yoga on the hardwood floor. 

Corey Hess 

It was really hard. 

Corey Hess 

I was this athlete. 

Corey Hess 

They’re all tight, you know. 

Corey Hess 

And so just killed me, you know, but they were really. 

Corey Hess 

It was really. 

Corey Hess 

Interesting for me to see people, uh? 

Corey Hess 

You know they were kind of shaved down. 

Corey Hess 

Everything was big, you know they didn’t. 

Corey Hess 

They didn’t have anything and they were just these. 

Corey Hess 

These electric bodies walking around. 

Corey Hess 

I was I. 

Corey Hess 

I found that very appealing. 

Corey Hess 

It wasn’t. 

Berry Crawford 

When you saw them in person, it wasn’t just. 

Corey Hess 

Like went to their house, went to the Vedic center, you know, and had they made me? 

Corey Hess 

You know potato pancakes or something so. 

Berry Crawford 

So that was that was your first taste of Eastern spirituality. 

Corey Hess 

I would say that was a big. 

Corey Hess 

That was one I’ve been, you know, going through the library I, I think in Montana there were a couple of books on Zen couple books on. 

Corey Hess 

I think I had read books in high school on Buddhism, but there were a couple photographs books of. 

Corey Hess 

Then in in the library in college, I can’t remember if it was either in Missoula or in. 

Berry Crawford 

I think we talked about it like the Zen life. 

Berry Crawford 

I think I may have. 

Corey Hess 

But if it was, then life and that really. 

Corey Hess 

That really profoundly hit me again. 

Berry Crawford 

You know, it’s that book was huge influence on me too. 

 Berry Crawford 

I remember looking through that book knowing I would live at a monastery at some point. 

Berry Crawford 

Just you know. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, so so yeah and then. 

Corey Hess 

And and then I got really I wanted to be a writer. 

Corey Hess 

I thought I want to be a. 

Corey Hess 

Poet Farm report. 

Corey Hess 

I thought it was gonna be a farm report. 

Corey Hess 

There was a great program. 

Corey Hess 

In Missoula and. 

Corey Hess 

We were reading a lot of Gary Snyder. 

Corey Hess 

We were horses. 

Berry Crawford 

OK. 

Corey Hess 

Him was reading a lot of Jack Kerouac, and we thought we were Jack Kerouac. 

Corey Hess 

You know that Missoula is kind of like that, and. 

Corey Hess 

And come in in now so cocky. Who might one of my favorites. But but yeah, so I was. I wrote Gary, I really, I said, I wrote Gary an email and I said I want to go to Japan and BI wanna do some Zen training and being writer like you, I was pretty desperate and he said, you know, wait? 

Corey Hess 

Wait a second come, go to the place in on Whidbey. 

Corey Hess 

There’s a there’s a real teacher who’s starting a place there, and. 

Berry Crawford 

And this is Prado. 

Corey Hess 

Yep, Harada Roshi and that was Tahoma. 

Corey Hess 

One drop on on Whidbey Island here and. 

Corey Hess 

And so you know, I I, I wrote a couple people, got got involved and I I came out here that first time. 

Corey Hess 

That was when I was I. 

Corey Hess 

I think it was. 

Corey Hess 

Maybe it was early 2000 something or maybe 99 or 2000 that I came out for the first time and I. 

Corey Hess 

I was here and the head monk was was there and I it was overwhelming for me and it was nothing like I expected and I I. 

Corey Hess 

Got out I left, yeah. 

Berry Crawford 

Well, in what way? 

Berry Crawford 

It’s what ways did differ from your expectation? 

Berry Crawford 

Yeah about rainbows and butterflies and. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah it was, uh, yeah. 

Corey Hess 

You know, again, I feel like a bum. 

Corey Hess 

You know when you’re confronted, you’re confronted with something powerful like that. 

Corey Hess 

I, for me, it was. 

Corey Hess 

It was very intense. 

Corey Hess 

Confronted by OK, the head monk, there was, uh, I feel a really amazing person. 

Corey Hess 

A very uh, a certain freedom coming through. 

Berry Crawford 

This wasn’t the Roshi, there was another head knock. 

Corey Hess 

This is not the head monk yet, and I’m sorry this is not the roof yet. 

Corey Hess 

This is the head monk that’s usando you and know you. 

Corey Hess 

Was was amazing to me and he was charismatic and you know beautiful and you know shaved head and what he. 

Corey Hess 

He’s still beautiful with the you know they don’t have any clothes. 

Corey Hess 

You know these dumb, you know crazy clothes and you know they’re they’re living there and they have their rain boots. 

Corey Hess 

And you know, so dial down there, nothing, nothing extra there and yet so beautiful and also really sharp. 

Corey Hess 

So I would I would say something. 

Corey Hess 

You know my normal techniques of interacting with people and shut down or or smashed. 

Berry Crawford 

What? What kind of? 

Corey Hess 

You know or? 

Berry Crawford 

Sorry, what kind of infrastructure did they have at that point? 

Berry Crawford 

Did they have? 

Berry Crawford 

Was it actually a functioning center? 

Berry Crawford 

Was like they resumed oh or so or? 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, I mean, that’s it. That’s a good story. I mean, yes, the the zendo. What happened was I think it I forget what year it was 96 or 7 or something. 

Corey Hess 

They bought the land and then they they bought these trailers. 

Corey Hess 

These nice trailers. 

Corey Hess 

Double wides, you know. 

Corey Hess 

And they they they brought him in, ’cause the Roshi. 

Corey Hess 

Was gonna move the next day. 

Corey Hess 

You know what I mean? 

Berry Crawford 

OK. 

Corey Hess 

He’s coming like the next day and he never actually moved here, you know, but you know, so people people are disappoint. 

Corey Hess 

But so they brought in these these really nice double wide in trailers. 

Corey Hess 

And there was already a yurt there, and a Hermitage that people had. 

Corey Hess 

Built small Hermitage in a yurt. 

Corey Hess 

And then they brought in these two buildings and then, and so those were there, and. 

Corey Hess 

Then the kitchen. 

Corey Hess 

Was also there, which is a beautiful kitchen. 

Corey Hess 

So there was there was enough stuff that the zendo was fully there and everything I slept in his endo and and that’s still the zendo to. 

Berry Crawford 

And was there a regular monastic schedule? 

Berry Crawford 

Was there? 

Berry Crawford 

You know, waking up at 5:00, and then you know tanning, huh? 

Corey Hess 

Yes, yeah there wasn’t psalms in, you know, but there was. 

Corey Hess 

It was really beautiful really quiet out there. 

Corey Hess 

Just me and two other guys at that point with the deer you know, and eating our oatmeal in the morning and chanting and. 

Corey Hess 

Sitting morning and night and working during the day and but but again, it was really intense for me and I felt I felt pretty exposed and. 

Corey Hess 

Unconsciously, I didn’t really, really know what to do with it and so I. 

Corey Hess 

Left I left it. 

Berry Crawford 

How long did you stay there? 

Corey Hess 

Well, like you know it’s only like 5 days, four days or something. 

OK. 

Corey Hess 

I’m out. 

Corey Hess 

Of here and I. 

Corey Hess 

And I went and I was going to go travel. 

Corey Hess 

I’m going to go live my life and I don’t need that it it. 

Corey Hess 

It hit me deeply, you know, and I went traveling in and I’ve said this before, but I I realized I was in. 

Corey Hess 

You know, I was in Cuba. 

Corey Hess 

I was traveling. 

Corey Hess 

Around and. 

Corey Hess 

I really realized that there was something I needed to discover in order to enjoy anything in my life. 

Corey Hess 

To really be satisfied with anything, I had to be coming from a place of a different place, and I had always known that and and and it just seeing going there to Tahoma. 

Corey Hess 

And then leaving and seeing, oh, I really can’t be in that place. 

Corey Hess 

I I can’t fake it and and again, the great doubt for me was very. 

Corey Hess 

Urgent so I realized, oh, I’ve, I’ve I was compelled to go back and and when I went back. 

Corey Hess 

Back in the States and and then I emailed them and they come on out. 

Corey Hess 

You can go out, come on out and I went out and the row she was there for a seven day retreat. 

Corey Hess 

It was Day 4 something like that Day 3. 

Berry Crawford 

At the formal session. 

Corey Hess 

Formolo session Yep and 50 people or something like that and the whole the whole deal, you know. 

Corey Hess 

And I went in and you know it. 

Corey Hess 

I can tell that story if you like I I meant the rocheux OK. 

Berry Crawford 

Yeah, please do. 

Corey Hess 

Well, you know it’s it’s. 

Corey Hess 

It’s so strange it’s such a strange environment you’ve never really been anything like this. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, all these people I go into lunch went into the lunch they’re having lunch. 

Corey Hess 

They’re chanting really loud and aggressively and fat. 

Corey Hess 

Asked and you know, these normal looking people all dressed in these clothes and they’re kind of sweaty. 

Corey Hess 

You know they’re they’re there. 

Corey Hess 

They look ragged, you know, they’re they’re, they’re eating their their rice really fast and it’s it’s kind of a weird half violent scene. 

Corey Hess 

What the heck is going on here? 

Corey Hess 

And they’re really he’s there and he’s. 

Corey Hess 

Kind of this. 

Corey Hess 

Maniac at the top of the table and he’s these huge chopsticks like somebody gave him to him. 

Corey Hess 

You know, I. 

Corey Hess 

I learned later, but he’s huge what? 

Corey Hess 

The hell where am I? 

Corey Hess 

You know these you. 

Corey Hess 

Know and and. 

Corey Hess 

It’s just a weird scene and but somehow he had figured out that I was there. 

Corey Hess 

Somebody had told him and. 

Corey Hess 

He kind of new old Betsy Young kind of healthy young, yeah, fresh meat kind of burning a little too hot. 

Berry Crawford 

Fresh leave. 

Corey Hess 

You know my kind of guy. 

Corey Hess 

You know he’s he could. 

Corey Hess 

He could maybe see a similar species and so he he invited me to come have tea and and. 

Corey Hess 

So you go into his house, was there at that point too. 

Corey Hess 

Sorry you had forgot to mention that his house and that’s where they do songs and it’s very beautiful actually. 

Corey Hess 

Sort of Pacific Northwest meets, you know, Japanese architecture is really beautiful. 

Corey Hess 

So I went in, had tea in his his house, and. 

Corey Hess 

You know, and he’s just so profoundly dumb. 

Corey Hess 

Powerful, yeah, so dumb. 

Corey Hess 

You know it was really. 

Corey Hess 

It was really like meeting human possibility. 

Corey Hess 

For me. 

Corey Hess 

It was like saying here is that thing you’ve been looking for and you’ve been not just looking but feeling is true and then meeting that physically in a person. 

Corey Hess 

And and and so like all my cells just lit up, you know, and that’s what it’s like to be around someone like that. 

Corey Hess 

All of your cells who’ve been sort of waiting. 

Corey Hess 

They they kind of light up. 

Corey Hess 

Oh my gosh, this is resonating and. 

Corey Hess 

You know he’s sitting there, his voice is is in conceivably deep like what’s going on here. 

Berry Crawford 

So is he speaking English or is he being translated? 

Berry Crawford 

At this point. 

Corey Hess 

Didn’t translate it at that point and dumb. 

Corey Hess 

You know, so it’s weird. 

Corey Hess 

It’s it’s a weird scene what? 

Corey Hess 

What am I doing here? 

Corey Hess 

And this guy is so so I asked him. 

Corey Hess 

I was compelled. 

Corey Hess 

Why would someone like me go to Japan and train and come? 

Corey Hess 

You know he looked at me and you know, and he said, you know, what do you think you know with the and I like, well, I think it depends on the person. 

Corey Hess 

Everyone would be, you know, maybe different why they would actually go. 

Corey Hess 

And he says no. 

Corey Hess 

It’s to realize why you were born, you know. 

Corey Hess 

And, uh, and that for me was dumb. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah it was. 

Corey Hess 

Really a shake up. 

Corey Hess 

I had no where to escape that you know and I had nowhere to put it in my mental understanding of of of you know of where to dodge where, where to put that and be safe and the role she’s like that he’s. 

Corey Hess 

He he he’s on top of you, he he’s immense, you know his presence is it takes you over. 

Berry Crawford 

Is it unsettling or is it comforting or both? 

Berry Crawford 

OK. 

Corey Hess 

You’re, you’re dumb, and yet he. 

He can he can. 

Corey Hess 

He can be so loving too, so it’s it’s that all is once. 

Corey Hess 

He’s very he’s very warm, very warm but but but huge and he’s only 5 foot talks about that. 

Corey Hess 

Huge but warm. 

Corey Hess 

And also you know you can tell this is this is a really. 

Corey Hess 

Scary person in a lot of ways, which is what I love that was like for me. 

Corey Hess 

That was I was. 

Corey Hess 

I was always the most intense person and so meeting the Roshi was love. 

Corey Hess 

Someone more intense for me that gave me space to be able to to develop and I I really needed that with him. 

Berry Crawford 

So, did he explicitly invite you out to Japan at this point, or what was that process? 

Corey Hess 

That was pretty much, I think, that was pretty. 

Corey Hess 

Much it yeah. 

Corey Hess 

That was him saying that and and. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, I think he I don’t know that we actually said that exactly, but I think it was clear I could go and and and then. 

Corey Hess 

I went to and then later that year like in the summer. 

Corey Hess 

Somehow I got invited to go to to Japan with that head monk, though you took me with some. 

Corey Hess 

Elementary still school students. 

Corey Hess 

We went to Japan on this special trip and I’ve got to be a chaperone, you know. 

Corey Hess 

And we got to go to the to so Gengi and Kyoto and Hiroshima. 

Corey Hess 

All that and and. 

Corey Hess 

And so I got to. 

Corey Hess 

I had already done oh session a few days. 

Corey Hess 

Of oh sorry so. 

Corey Hess 

After after I had, that’s right, after I had that talk with Hiroshi, I did. 

Corey Hess 

I finished out the OH session there for. 

Corey Hess 

Three days OK. 

Corey Hess 

I got to have I got to have signs in with him and that was, you know. 

Corey Hess 

Very powerful for me, but I wasn’t really ready. 

Corey Hess 

So then I went to Japan with this group as this chaperone and I was I was there. 

Corey Hess 

You know, going going through this this weird schedule, this crazy schedule. 

Corey Hess 

All these foreigners are there. 

Corey Hess 

It’s it. 

Corey Hess 

They really are like Jedi there though, like they look like Jedi. 

Corey Hess 

You know they they have these robes. 

Corey Hess 

They they’re shaved. 

Corey Hess 

They’re carrying case Aku the the stick and it really it does feel like. 

Corey Hess 

Jedi training and it. 

Corey Hess 

Also feels like what is this strange place? 

Corey Hess 

People dressing up and and so it’s both incredibly impressive and and shattering. 

Corey Hess 

And it’s also like this weird place, you know. 

Berry Crawford 

Are people on robes or are they in like what? 

Berry Crawford 

What’s the? 

Berry Crawford 

What’s, what’s the the date? 

Berry Crawford 

Did they dress there? 

Corey Hess 

In a day dress, you wear your your summer greens during the day. 

Corey Hess 

You’re always in soggy some way. 

Corey Hess 

And which is, you know, the the guy and then the pants and drill holes in in the zendo you wear your formal clothing so that if you’re ordained you wear a. 

Berry Crawford 

Even in the window. 

Berry Crawford 

OK, yeah. 

Corey Hess 

Rope, is it a? 

Berry Crawford 

Is it a mix of Japanese and Westerners, or mostly westerners or websites? 

Corey Hess 

Fluently foreigners. 

Corey Hess 

I wouldn’t necessarily say westerners, but a lot of Westerners. 

Corey Hess 

Lots of foreigners, so people actually from India. 

Corey Hess 

People from Taiwan. 

Corey Hess 

Lots of Westerners, lots of Europeans, less of eastern Europeans. 

Corey Hess 

Australians, you know and. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, so so. 

Corey Hess 

Going to see the rochie for that I went. 

Corey Hess 

I was able to go to sounds in there and it was very emotional for. 

Corey Hess 

Me I was. 

Corey Hess 

Obviously I was going. 

Corey Hess 

I was being bombarded by this place, it’s it’s. 

Corey Hess 

It’s like an oven of of essence in power and it was very powerful for me. 

Corey Hess 

Emotional and I was hitting up like this is what I’ve got to do with my life and I I wasn’t quite ready to do it. 

Corey Hess 

But and so that hit me very deeply. 

Corey Hess 

I would go into sons in every crying and the referee was very. 

Corey Hess 

Gentle with me at that point, really. 

Corey Hess 

Uh, you know supportive of me and and knowing that oh this is a person who. 

Corey Hess 

It needs to to discover this. 

Corey Hess 

It isn’t an idea, it’s not a good idea to do this training, it’s a. 

Corey Hess 

It’s a must, you know, and that’s what he’s looking for is people who they they don’t really have a choice. 

Corey Hess 

They’ve got to do this, and so he saw that. 

Corey Hess 

Then me. 

Where and at? 

Berry Crawford 

This point, did you know you were going to practice there? 

Berry Crawford 

Or is it still up in the air? 

Corey Hess 

I fought it for a long time. 

Corey Hess 

I really fought it in back to the States and I was I was bumbling around and I I actually first met my my partner, my wife. 

Berry Crawford 

So you went back to the states. 

Right? 

Corey Hess 

Now I first met her. 

Corey Hess 

We were both visiting the monastery at that point and. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, and she was, uh. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, so she was there and and then we were both back for the summer on Whidbey and. 

Corey Hess 

And and then I I wasn’t. 

Corey Hess 

I wasn’t didn’t want to go. 

Corey Hess 

I didn’t want to go. 

Corey Hess 

I wasn’t ready. 

Corey Hess 

I I no way I don’t want to go do that I knowing. 

Berry Crawford 

I had to, but I I could like you were living at the web. 

Berry Crawford 

Whidbey Island. 

Berry Crawford 

Zen center. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, I was basically when I told Houma, but I was trying to get away trying to get away. You know I was running around and then come and then we had an oh session in September and day six was 911 and that. 

Corey Hess 

Really sealed the deal for me. 

Corey Hess 

Oh, and having sons in with the rochie for that week that really sealed the deal for me and. 

Corey Hess 

And and so then I went in October to eat Pam, and that’s where I then I stayed there for several years. 

Berry Crawford 

So could you paint a little bit picture of the? 

Berry Crawford 

Monastery there is it. 

Berry Crawford 

Is it fairly traditional architecture? 

Berry Crawford 

Is it within a forest? 

Berry Crawford 

Is it in a suburb like like like kind of pimp? 

Berry Crawford 

If you can’t paint a little bit of a physical picture of what it. 

Berry Crawford 

Is what the place is like if you could. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, so it’s at the base of the mountain. 

Corey Hess 

And and it’s in Maruyama which Okayama is a real city. 

Corey Hess 

That’s a real city and Maruyama is a little part of that city. 

Corey Hess 

And so there is a neighborhood around it. 

Corey Hess 

And it’s actually so the the monastery is is sort of here and then everything. 

Corey Hess 

There’s a. 

Corey Hess 

There’s a neighborhood around it, and all these houses traditionally would would pay the monastery. 

Corey Hess 

That’s how it worked in Japan. 

Corey Hess 

Some kind of tax or whatever, and. 

Corey Hess 

And so you’re you’re there and it’s a big place. 

Corey Hess 

It’s like a I would say like the size of a you know a big high school on that type of size. 

Corey Hess 

And so so behind you. 

Corey Hess 

You have all this woods and you have a beautiful pond and and and so it feels tucked in there. 

Corey Hess 

You feel. 

Corey Hess 

Definitely feel safe there. 

Corey Hess 

There walls around it. 

Corey Hess 

You know it’s very safe. 

Corey Hess 

And it’s very beautiful. 

Corey Hess 

Lots of big trees, lots of work in the garden, lots of work everywhere. 

Corey Hess 

And it’s like I said, it’s a big place. 

Corey Hess 

The buildings are very traditional, huge, huge Holmdel, the main hall, huge, it’s it’s a very beautiful temple yeah. 

Berry Crawford 

Is there a? 

Berry Crawford 

Sodo that the monks would sleep in. 

Berry Crawford 

Or do you get you have your own rooms or how did that work? 

Corey Hess 

Usually, traditionally monks would sleep in the zendo, and then when they got a job they would go up to what’s called joju, the administrative building. 

Corey Hess 

But many of us would just sleep outside under the under the stars. 

Berry Crawford 

OK, alright camping basically. 

Corey Hess 

What you do? 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, yeah. 

Corey Hess 

What you do is you find out somehow you find a roof, and if there’s there’s so, there’s a some kind of roof, then you don’t get wet every morning, so that’s most of us we would do that. 

Corey Hess 

We would find a spot I wish to sleep under the the sun more. 

Corey Hess 

One which is this huge structure and. 

Berry Crawford 

The gain. 

Corey Hess 

The gate the the Big gate? 

Corey Hess 

Yep the diamond somone. 

Corey Hess 

Yep and Yep used to sleep under there and. 

Corey Hess 

Then you do your Yas out there your night sitting. 

Corey Hess 

I’m very beautiful, you’re beautiful. 

Berry Crawford 

Was uh, with the with the local Japanese congregates, would they come for like ancestor ceremonies and didn’t deserve that kind of temple role for the local community? 

Berry Crawford 

At all or. 

Corey Hess 

Yes, yes I I think for sure you know around the new year and there would be ceremony. 

Corey Hess 

There’s some kind of ceremony going on there. 

Corey Hess 

You know you so so active temple, the rochie and and then every month we would have, uh, a ceremony called B shamone there where everyone a lot of the community would come in and there would be a big tea ceremony. 

Corey Hess 

It’s a it’s. 

Corey Hess 

It’s a really. 

Corey Hess 

It’s a real temple, it’s a real place. 

Corey Hess 

And but yet not a whole lot of. 

Corey Hess 

Uhm, Japanese monks come there because the real she decided not to give the the priest of certification to these moves. 

Corey Hess 

So traditionally what happens in Japan is you’re you’re a monk. 

Corey Hess 

Uhm, your your dad’s a priest. You’re a monk, you come. You go to a place for three years. 

Corey Hess 

You get a certificate and. 

Corey Hess 

Then you go and be. 

Corey Hess 

A priest at that temple and and so the real. 

Corey Hess 

She didn’t give that, so the that draw wasn’t there for the Japanese, so it was. 

Corey Hess 

It was like you gotta be here because you want to train. 

Corey Hess 

You want to dive deep in. 

Corey Hess 

Honestly, the. 

Corey Hess 

A lot of times the Japanese would think you know why. 

Corey Hess 

Why are they? 

Corey Hess 

Why is this huge Danish guy who’s 7 foot tall been here 20 years? 

Corey Hess 

What they they wouldn’t understand it. 

Corey Hess 

They both be all. 

Corey Hess 

And you know, think it was totally crazy so. 

Berry Crawford 

So was there a pretty established song at that point as far as the the practitioners was, there had been when you showed up, there had been practitioners there for decades at that point, yeah, and what? 

Berry Crawford 

What were the? 

Berry Crawford 

Was it? 

Berry Crawford 

Would you say there’s any like hazing or you know was there? 

Berry Crawford 

Was there any? 

Berry Crawford 

Of that kind of vibe going on. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, I mean there’s there’s some you know there’s some people there that are, they’re they’re criminals. 

Corey Hess 

You know, they’re they’re they’re they couldn’t survive anywhere else. 

Corey Hess 

They they? 

Corey Hess 

They’re institutionalized, they they’re there because they. 

Corey Hess 

You know they. 

Corey Hess 

They would end up in jail, so there’s some. 

Corey Hess 

There’s some unsettled people there. 

Corey Hess 

That’s part of what these places are like, but. 

Corey Hess 

The row she’s so profoundly intense and the place is so intense that I would say it’s less than the traditional soda where they’re. 

Corey Hess 

Plus we we came all the way from wherever we came from. 

Corey Hess 

So there there’s a little bit less of that. 

Corey Hess 

I think the real sheet route he toned that down a little bit so that there isn’t the the same level of of some of the the hazing of the soda. 

Berry Crawford 

You know, I I always pronounced that wrong. 

Berry Crawford 

But yeah, diya takeuchi. 

Berry Crawford 

Am I saying that right? 

Corey Hess 

I told you yeah. 

Berry Crawford 

Yeah, so I. 

Berry Crawford 

I know someone who lived for a while. 

Berry Crawford 

They are Westerner and. 

Berry Crawford 

He mentioned that you know he other than sans in, he never saw the rochie, you know, and you know the Rose. 

Berry Crawford 

She was basically like a sans and machine, and other than that it was the senior monks that would run things day today. 

Berry Crawford 

And you know. And but it sounds more at 7G. It was more you have more one on, one contact with the Russian. 

Berry Crawford 

Outside of his hands, and like he would eat with you guys and. 

Corey Hess 

What he did was. 

Corey Hess 

He had lunch with us, breakfast and lunch, and that’s pretty rare and I think. 

Corey Hess 

You know, kind of the Broshi personality is kind of like I think he wants his hands on everything that’s kind of who he is. 

Corey Hess 

He kind of wants control. 

Corey Hess 

He was. 

Corey Hess 

A control everything, so he’s yeah, he’s he’s he’s. 

Corey Hess 

Even going to lunch, you know and. 

Corey Hess 

He he’s directing all of the ceremonies. 

Corey Hess 

So so yeah, I would say that is a little bit different. 

Corey Hess 

So we did get to see him come, and honestly, that was really wonderful for us and and then when you get a job. 

Corey Hess 

So at first, when you’re in the monastery, you’re there and you’re you’re kind of surviving, you’re you’re just surviving and you’re out raking every day and you’re sweeping and raking and and digging holes and stuff like that. 

Berry Crawford 

I think you. 

Berry Crawford 

Guys caught Sabu and so we thought Sam was that same term. 

Corey Hess 

Yes, Yep, so so so so you’re out there. 

Corey Hess 

You’re working and and then in a certain point you’ve been there a while. 

Corey Hess 

Your sizing depends a little bit. 

Corey Hess 

Then the row she gives you some kind of. 

Corey Hess 

Job and then. 

Corey Hess 

You know whether whether you’re like an assistant cook or your assistant to the Fouhy answering the phones and stuff. 

Corey Hess 

Stuff like that or you end up being helping with the the ceremonies in the Dentsu, chanting and and at first you don’t have you don’t. 

Corey Hess 

You don’t have to do. 

Corey Hess 

The the big stuff but. 

Corey Hess 

You’re you’re involved, and then you might get a job where you’re up in the administrative quarters and and so like for me, at a certain point, I was. 

Corey Hess 

Living about 15 feet from the rochie for for a few years just on either side of him in different rooms and and and so that I found that really beautiful and wonderful from my practice. 

Berry Crawford 

And from day one you, you’re part of the Samson process, right there for me. 

Corey Hess 

I had already done the Suns in Tahoma, so once you’re in you’re in but some people have to wait a little while. 

Corey Hess 

You know you show up in your bum. 

Corey Hess 

They’re not sure if you’re gonna get to stay there then, and maybe it’s not quite the right fit. 

Corey Hess 

We’ll see, so they have to wait and some people have to sit like in a whole 7 day retreat without doing sons in it. 

Corey Hess 

That’s really hard. 

Corey Hess 

That would have been really hard for me. 

Berry Crawford 

Yeah, did. 

Berry Crawford 

Did you have any sort of? 

Berry Crawford 

What’s the phrase? 

Berry Crawford 

Uh, you know where you come, you have to sit in a room by yourself for seven days. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, we didn’t have that. 

Corey Hess 

No, that wasn’t there. 

Corey Hess 

Yep, that’s some traditional. 

Corey Hess 

But no, I think the row she thought that we we traveled all that way that we were. 

Corey Hess 

Stand yeah. 

Berry Crawford 

And So what? 

Berry Crawford 

What were the initial songs in? 

Berry Crawford 

Was it breathwork? 

Berry Crawford 

Was he working on your posture, your breathing, your your, your? 

Berry Crawford 

I mean like what, what? 

Berry Crawford 

Like what? 

Berry Crawford 

Was it just growling at each other? 

Corey Hess 

Uhm, yeah, the the row she gives you this Ahsoka so that’s. 

Corey Hess 

The UM the the deep exhalation. 

Corey Hess 

And that’s the practice. 

Corey Hess 

Always the practice, but at first it’s it’s kind of just what you’re doing and. 

Corey Hess 

So the so con involves extending the breath as far as you can. 

Corey Hess 

And then, uh. 

Corey Hess 

A little bit more and without force and most of us we use force and we for for a while we don’t know how to do that, so we use force. 

Berry Crawford 

Would you get lightheaded? 

Corey Hess 

Lightheaded, Oh my gosh, all kinds of stuff. 

Berry Crawford 

I I I really struggled with that first the the Lightheadedness, it didn’t. 

Corey Hess 

Kinds of stuff you know you’re. 

Corey Hess 

And I think the one thing that’s confusing about the Roshi is he’s so profoundly intense that people confuse that for force. 

Corey Hess 

And you gotta kind of. 

Corey Hess 

Find that out for for yourself only. 

Corey Hess 

This I can’t force this. 

Corey Hess 

If I force it doesn’t happen so. 

Corey Hess 

And what happens with that? 

Corey Hess 

Uhm is through this esilicon you start to your your size and your zazen starts deepen your somebody starts to deepen and then your whole system starts to unify your focus in your breath and the energy all become the same thing and and so you’re coming in your breathing. 

Corey Hess 

The rosh can see this one pointedness and this is what he’s looking for. 

Berry Crawford 

Right? 

Corey Hess 

So the the the silicone is a tool to bring that the person all into oneness. 

Corey Hess 

So that’s the that’s the first practice there. 

Corey Hess 

Oh, she’s older brother and in the monastery type. 

Corey Hess 

O she, he would actually bring a a stopwatch into sons and as a teacher, imagine that. 

Berry Crawford 

So his biological brother. 

Corey Hess 

No, no. 

Corey Hess 

He’s older sempy brother at Chelsea good. 

I see, yeah. 

Corey Hess 

So he hearing that. 

Corey Hess 

So that’s, uh. 

Berry Crawford 

Yeah, so how long did he keep you on the breathwork until giving you move? 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, I I was on this is so kind for for a while I was on for two years. 

Berry Crawford 

Oh wow. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, and I’m so grateful for that. 

Corey Hess 

Actually I think it. 

Corey Hess 

People should stay on. 

Corey Hess 

This is so con for a long time. 

Corey Hess 

That’s what I think. 

Corey Hess 

I think it’s so fruitful and it’s so powerful and. 

Corey Hess 

We’re all doing it anyway, but to to spend a a deeper time really just hanging out, and that is, I think, really beneficial. 

Corey Hess 

A lot of but teacher. 

Corey Hess 

I think they’ll they’ll give students a cone kind of get a OK. 

Corey Hess 

They can sink their teeth into it, but if the people? 

Corey Hess 

Can really get into this so con for a long time. 

Corey Hess 

I think it’s really beneficial. 

Berry Crawford 

And did you see when he gave you a did you see it coming? 

Berry Crawford 

Could you feel you were ready, or was that kind of a surprise to you? 

Corey Hess 

I was kinda waiting. 

Corey Hess 

I was I I was eager, you know, eager? 

Corey Hess 

You’re so dumb. 

Corey Hess 

You know that’s part of it. 

Corey Hess 

You gotta have this fire in there and and so yeah, no. 

Corey Hess 

I was very eager. 

Corey Hess 

I was very dumb. 

Corey Hess 

Why, why? 

Corey Hess 

Why is it waiting so long? 

Corey Hess 

Why am I not doing? 

Corey Hess 

The mood that’s kind of how it is, yeah. 

Berry Crawford 

You can’t ask. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, yeah you can’t ask and. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, so no, I was. 

Corey Hess 

I was eager, eager to get on it. 

Berry Crawford 

So so when you got new, did he give you any instructions or? 

Berry Crawford 

I mean obviously you’re sitting in Samsu Sands in line and you’re hearing, you know. 

Oh Julia. 

Berry Crawford 

So, so you probably have a sense of the process just from hanging out and seeing the scene. 

Berry Crawford 

Was there any instruction at all? 

Berry Crawford 

Or was it like? 

Berry Crawford 

Goshu you know? 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, yeah well. 

Corey Hess 

You know? 

Corey Hess 

At first you get you. 

Corey Hess 

First you get the moon. 

Corey Hess 

You’re not. 

Corey Hess 

You’re not vocalising it so often, see. 

Corey Hess 

You’re just on move, but you’re not, UM. 

Corey Hess 

You know, yeah, I don’t think he for us. 

Corey Hess 

I don’t think we felt permission to to vocalize it and we didn’t. 

Corey Hess 

Really have any. 

Berry Crawford 

I I’ve met Vocalising and Samson Samson. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, even in even in sons and I don’t. 

Berry Crawford 

Oh, even it sounds real. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah not vocalising you so you know you’ll be honest. 

Corey Hess 

Some people never yell the moon, they they can even pass without without yelling, which is really interesting. 

Corey Hess 

But even in in in that you know you’re you’re not sure when it’s ready. 

Corey Hess 

And then I think at a certain point, the. 

Corey Hess 

The real, she said, let’s hear it, you know, and dumb and and so then I I I let that out. 

Corey Hess 

I want to talk a little bit about that real quick if we can, like you know, people love the. 

Corey Hess 

I don’t know what people think about the move but but I what I would describe it as it’s a. 

Corey Hess 

It’s an energetic transformation process where you, what happens is you start to fill up. 

Corey Hess 

Your process starts to unify, and then there’s this overflowing of essence of energy. 

Corey Hess 

And the shout is this overflowing it’s an expression of this overflowing of energy, the cover. 

Berry Crawford 

So it must be feeling that it would just be faking it. 

Corey Hess 

Right, so you can yell, but it, but if it’s not coming from this, this place of well full and taut. 

Corey Hess 

Uhm overflowing, then yeah, it’s it’s. 

Corey Hess 

It’s just like kind of faking or you know, or just you know, not interesting. 

Corey Hess 

So there oh she’s he he could see. 

Corey Hess 

That you know, OK, I can see I can feel that you know. 

Corey Hess 

So I I can start to start to let that out and. 

Corey Hess 

And then that. 

Corey Hess 

That becomes a whole refining beautiful process of deepening how to let that out and let that through us. 

Corey Hess 

So that’s for me. 

Corey Hess 

That was a lot in the process. 

Corey Hess 

With the move. 

Berry Crawford 

And so you and so how long would you say? 

Berry Crawford 

Did you work with move into a kind of started, encompassing every moment you know where you kind of became new? 

Berry Crawford 

Would you say sort of saying? 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, uhm. 

Corey Hess 

I was actually on a really short time. I was only on it like a year and I know people on, you know on there. I moved 20 years, 25 years so I was really. 

Corey Hess 

Fortunate in my process to go through it, I think. 

Berry Crawford 

Was this pre sorry to interrupt? 

Berry Crawford 

Was this pre ordination? 

Corey Hess 

Pre ordination 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, so I was very fortunate to be the so con for me. 

Corey Hess 

Had really. 

Corey Hess 

Help my process to to really get going and so with the MU. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, so So what happens is what happened for me was. 

Corey Hess 

You’re you’re doing the mood. 

Corey Hess 

You’re doing the mood, which means you’re there going moo moo. 

Corey Hess 

And then you’re like **** I want to do something else. 

Corey Hess 

I want to think about something else. 

Corey Hess 

You know what I mean and you’re doing that and. 

Corey Hess 

You know and then at a certain point you you really start to fall in love with the MU over and over and and it starts to just happen like you’re there. 

Corey Hess 

And then there’s the moon, it’s. 

Corey Hess 

Just move. 

Corey Hess 

You know the movie was just there and it’s not. 

Corey Hess 

It’s not something you’re doing, it’s. 

Berry Crawford 

Maybe it’s doing you, maybe you could say. 

Corey Hess 

Not this right? 

Corey Hess 

And and you know you’re dreaming, dreaming move. 

Corey Hess 

No, you know wake up, move. 

Corey Hess 

You know you’re just, you’re all everything is moved and the bird cries and it’s Lou you, you’re in a conversation. 

Corey Hess 

With someone and you accidentally, you’re just saying moo, you know, and dumb. 

Corey Hess 

You start to be able to see it I. 

Corey Hess 

Can I can? 

Corey Hess 

See move like physically it’s there it is and and so it’s a. 

Corey Hess 

It’s a whole process of of unification. 

Corey Hess 

And for me it was like climbing through. 

Corey Hess 

This entanglement of how I dealt with reality was like the the moon was this way to kind of usher usher through this. 

Corey Hess 

The cloud the the cloud of my separation from this true experience that I had been waiting for for so long, so. 

Corey Hess 

The move kind of. 

Corey Hess 

It was a way to kinda hold onto the move, but no like like go through this and then this open Vista is there and then something. 

Corey Hess 

Finally over a long time of day. 

Corey Hess 

In this or everyday seeing, the rochie going to Suns and and then finally hitting this, this profound place with it and opening up. 

Berry Crawford 

Did you have any? 

Berry Crawford 

Uhm, smaller openings prior to that that? 

Berry Crawford 

He presented or was it? 

Berry Crawford 

Kind of just out of. 

Berry Crawford 

The blue, so to speak. 

Corey Hess 

Uhm, I mean you know it’s it’s. 

Corey Hess 

It’s a beautiful process. 

Corey Hess 

It’s such a beautiful process. 

Corey Hess 

I would you you know every day you gotta hit it you gotta hit it, OK you go see the Roshan everyday at 7. 

Corey Hess 

Every day you’ve got to go see him and so every day your body goes into this process like I’ve got. 

Corey Hess 

I’ve got to touch this place. 

Corey Hess 

I’ve got to. 

Corey Hess 

Touch this place and. 

Corey Hess 

So you get good at it. 

Corey Hess 

You get OK. 

Corey Hess 

I’ve got to bring everything into oneness right now and go see the Roshi and. 

Corey Hess 

And so you go. 

Corey Hess 

See him in. 

Corey Hess 

It’s an explosion, you know, and you’re there and you’re you’re crying and you’re both laughing and and. 

Corey Hess 

And then you go and you’re still working on. 

Corey Hess 

It’s not. 

Corey Hess 

It’s not deep enough, it’s not deep enough, but yeah, it’s it’s a whole process A it’s it’s almost incremental it’s. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, and then finally, there’s there’s hopefully some kind of big big change that happens when, at a certain point. 

Corey Hess 

But yeah, you you you kind of touch it, but you’re not quite ready. 

Corey Hess 

You touch it. 

Corey Hess 

So it’s it’s yeah it’s very much like a this veil that you kind of peek through somehow and then. 

Corey Hess 

That’s my experience. 

Berry Crawford 

Uh, so do you? 

Berry Crawford 

Are you comfortable talking about the experience a little bit like I like giving? 

Berry Crawford 

It like what? 

Corey Hess 

Little bit little bit, yeah. 

Berry Crawford 

I mean. 

Berry Crawford 

Without giving away too much to the. 

Berry Crawford 

But I mean like because you know, I, I think what and one of the main reasons I want to do these. 

Berry Crawford 

Type of podcasts is. 

Berry Crawford 

I want to motivate people practices and and the truth is if it wasn’t for three pillars of Zen, I never would have practice in. 

Berry Crawford 

So you know and and so and and I know a lot of people are not comfortable with this, but you know, could you could you touch that a little bit on the opening itself to the depth that you feel comfortable? 

Right? 

Corey Hess 

So let’s see. 

Corey Hess 

So it was. 

Corey Hess 

I think it was. 

Corey Hess 

The fall training period is it. 

Corey Hess 

It’s like this is it? 

Corey Hess 

This is everything is a build up to the fall training period and and then raatz is at the end. 

Corey Hess 

Obviously in December there’s the the, the big, the big final retreat is in December, but. 

Corey Hess 

So you’re gearing up there. Oh, she starts to get pretty intense. Pretty crazy, you know into the fall, like he’s gearing up, you’re gearing up for that ball training period. The moon’s really bright. The energy is really crisp and and for me. 

Corey Hess 

I was in the I think was in the Dentsu. 

Corey Hess 

At that point, I hadn’t really learned how to. 

Corey Hess 

It really helped me open up the the ceremonies I was leading the chanting and I’ve had really that have really opened me up to my my the energy and. 

Corey Hess 

And I was, let’s see, it was. 

Corey Hess 

At a certain point, I decided every night I would just stay. 

Corey Hess 

Up this is so day day, one probably of the OH session. 

Corey Hess 

I think it. 

Corey Hess 

Was the September or October maybe October? 

Corey Hess 

Oh session I’m I’m going to stay up. 

Corey Hess 

I’m just going to stay up and do Yaza every night and see what happens and. 

Berry Crawford 

No sleep at all. 

Corey Hess 

No sleep, I was going to see. 

Corey Hess 

What it was. 

Corey Hess 

Like and push it and see what would happen and and and for me the Yaza. 

Corey Hess 

I like to either do sitting or standing. 

Corey Hess 

I like both of them. 

Corey Hess 

I think they’re they’re both the same to me, it’s just slightly. 

Corey Hess 

But so I was going to just stand, stand or sit every night. 

Corey Hess 

As far as I could go and see what would happen and and also there was a typhoon. 

Corey Hess 

There’s a typhoon. 

Corey Hess 

So that was just kind of wild. 

Corey Hess 

It was a wild scene. 

Berry Crawford 

Like intense energy. 

Corey Hess 

Wild intense energy and. 

Corey Hess 

And so I’m staying up and, uh. 

Corey Hess 

And I I think it was day three or something. 

Corey Hess 

I I said I’m going to sit here and until something happens, you know, I, I’ve decided I’m going to sit here until something happens and. 

Corey Hess 

And so I sat there and and. 

Corey Hess 

At a certain point, I had a, uh, a big kundalini opening happen that. 

Corey Hess 

Some changed my body. 

Corey Hess 

I would say just permanently changed it during during that and. 

Corey Hess 

And then kept going kept going the the next day, the next day. 

Corey Hess 

And then I think it was day five or something, maybe day six day, six of the Ascension I was the MC. 

Corey Hess 

Google the we do the you know banking of the fish Drummond and. 

Corey Hess 

Choka and I was machuga. 

Corey Hess 

And, uh, I I lost it, but I was just I, I fell away. 

Corey Hess 

I was in somebody doing the doing the MCU. 

Corey Hess 

Go and, uh. 

Corey Hess 

You know you just I just. 

Berry Crawford 

Say somebody, do you mean like there’s no, there is no distinction or no you like, I think there’s different levels of what’s that. 

Corey Hess 

That type of model. 

Corey Hess 

Like that’s a really good point. 

Corey Hess 

That type of somebody there’s so many different types, but that type of meeting somebody I just was gone. 

Corey Hess 

I I I lost lost basically lost all my sense of time and space and and it came out of it. 

Corey Hess 

And it was a good joke a you know they’re you know they’re oh, she doesn’t usually say it’s a good joke, but somehow that. 

Corey Hess 

That came out and dumb. 

Corey Hess 

And then and the the mchugo is is it’s designed to kind of help the the chanting rhythm to keep it going. 

Corey Hess 

Keep the energy going so it’s a really beautiful job. 

Corey Hess 

It’s a wonderful job. 

Corey Hess 

I love them, could go and and and then day six. 

Corey Hess 

I think we what happened was we we all had to do. 

Corey Hess 

Gaza, in the zendo ’cause of the typhoon, and, and so the yasa is after the full day of city. 

Corey Hess 

You have to sit again. 

Corey Hess 

And I was sitting. 

Corey Hess 

I think I was sitting in seiza there, and. 

Corey Hess 

And some big change started to happen and I sort of went into this. 

Corey Hess 

Uhm, what they might call you know, Hawkwind Ice Caves, you know. 

Corey Hess 

You just go in. 

Berry Crawford 

It’s precise and crystalline. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, just come. 

Corey Hess 

This real place of unknown this real. 

Corey Hess 

Place of. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, you know this. 

Corey Hess 

They talk about this hot iron ball in your thumb. 

Corey Hess 

You can’t swallow, you can’t spit out and you’re just trapped trapped in that you know and can’t go anywhere can’t can’t can’t leave, can’t run away just sitting in that letting it. 

Corey Hess 

Cook, burn you you know and dumb. 

Corey Hess 

Stayed up, went back after that, yeah, then went back and I think I was standing that night. 

Corey Hess 

Stood long long time and then in the morning I was. 

Berry Crawford 

Had you not slept at all through the session up? 

Corey Hess 

I think it’s. 

Berry Crawford 

To this point. 

Corey Hess 

I slept, yeah, but I, you know, and I I wasn’t laying down. 

Corey Hess 

I don’t advise that people do that when they don’t lay down, but I didn’t lay down for a year and that was a big thing for me. 

Corey Hess 

It was a big energy moving the tandent energy. 

OK. 

Corey Hess 

Really powerful. 

Corey Hess 

I think that’s a special. 

Corey Hess 

Type of training that you should do that. 

Corey Hess 

I don’t think people. 

Corey Hess 

Should just do that out of nowhere. 

Corey Hess 

And there are certain things that it’s tough on the body. 

Corey Hess 

So just to say but and and so. 

Corey Hess 

Then I was the Suns in at so Genji is there’s the Hojo and then you ring the bell from the code when you go into the the Suns in room and you you work with him. 

Corey Hess 

So the code has two places and I was on the right side of the Hojo and the Koho garden was. 

Corey Hess 

Besides, really neat. 

Berry Crawford 

You’re in line for Sansa. 

Berry Crawford 

Yeah, yeah. 

Corey Hess 

In line and, but I I was hanging back and. 

Corey Hess 

I wasn’t I wasn’t, I didn’t run, I didn’t run to sons and I that day I I think I had stopped running at a certain point and and I was really cooking and they’re and they’re they’re OK with that and and and then she son had me stay back she had seen I had been really. 

Corey Hess 

She said, O she’s translator and he’s a profound teachers. 

Corey Hess 

I mean, she’s. 

Berry Crawford 

He’s a rochie on her in her. 

Berry Crawford 

Own right at this point, right? 

Corey Hess 

She’s are she for sure. 

Corey Hess 

For a long time. 

Corey Hess 

Dumb and dumb. 

Corey Hess 

And she had me stay back and dumb. 

Corey Hess 

And so I’m sitting there. 

Corey Hess 

And you know, finally, I had the the cells had all sort of aligned everything. 

Corey Hess 

I had been able to felt down to. 

Corey Hess 

The molecules you know. 

Corey Hess 

And this channel, this opening. 

Corey Hess 

And so I got up and I went and I was going to ring the bell and I just started to cry, started to cry and this energy started to come and. 

Corey Hess 

And dumb. 

Corey Hess 

Just forever coming and dumb. 

Corey Hess 

And so I he rings me and I ring the bell I walk in and he can see that something is really happening and dumb you know and he says you’ve. 

Corey Hess 

Walked it dishonestly, you know and dumb and I it was just bursting, was just bursting this. 

Corey Hess 

This opening was happening, waiting in line for sons and walking in very fortunate. 

Corey Hess 

Very fortunate time to be able to really have this happen with derochie with in real time with him. 

Corey Hess 

Very powerful. 

Corey Hess 

So that. 

Berry Crawford 

It almost it almost seems choreographed in some ways. 

Corey Hess 

Almost choreographed, I know. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah and and and so now we’ll move on with your training, he said. 

Corey Hess 

And so I was bawling, you know. 

Corey Hess 

And dumb. 

Berry Crawford 

So did you. 

Berry Crawford 

So did you have I mean like, what like what? 

Berry Crawford 

What was your insight? 

Berry Crawford 

Did you have a sense of like? 

Berry Crawford 

OK, so this is absolute reality. 

Berry Crawford 

I mean or. 

Berry Crawford 

I mean was there. 

Berry Crawford 

I mean like what like what was the. 

Berry Crawford 

Wisdom you feel. 

Berry Crawford 

I mean, not just like you’ve talked about it energetically, but what was the wisdom component that you feel kind of came up here? 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, I mean you just touch. 

Corey Hess 

You just touch the main line of everything. 

Corey Hess 

You just touch it, you you you experience the the main line of of of reality you know and and so. 

Corey Hess 

In that the the sense of. 

Corey Hess 

You know Corey, being you know any sense of division there. 

Corey Hess 

It just doesn’t really exist anymore. 

Corey Hess 

This sense of experience even experiencing something is doesn’t really exist anymore. 

Corey Hess 

You know. 

Corey Hess 

So you, you, you touch that you’re you’re in that and. 

Corey Hess 

Uhm, you you’re? 

Corey Hess 

And so for me, that was. 

Corey Hess 

It was cellularly. 

Corey Hess 

It was like really they talked about the bucket shattering. 

Corey Hess 

It was very much like that for me and then my perception changed and then was gone forever. 

Corey Hess 

From this this perception, my perspective was just profoundly different than for for the rest of the time for. 

Corey Hess 

Still is from this place of that that connection. 

Corey Hess 

That’s kind of my experience, yeah. 

Berry Crawford 

So did you? 

Berry Crawford 

Did you have any sort of? 

Berry Crawford 

Crash or dark night of the soul that. 

Berry Crawford 

Resulted from this, you know. 

Corey Hess 

No, not really. 

Corey Hess 

Although the the Rochie you know it’s hard. 

Corey Hess 

You know you wanna just bliss out. 

Corey Hess 

You know you want to just go just. 

Corey Hess 

I’m just gonna you know, bust out on this for for a long, long time and you’re he throws you into. 

Corey Hess 

New problems immediately. 

Berry Crawford 

So you started was that? 

Berry Crawford 

Uh, checking question type of. 

Corey Hess 

Taking questions and then come on and so you think, well, I’m just gonna I’m just gonna like soak this up I’m sitting I’m gonna sit in the park for a year you know no you know so. 

Corey Hess 

So yet So what? 

Corey Hess 

What that does is it you can’t rest in that you know. 

Corey Hess 

And so that Roshi then starts to talk about being able to. 

Corey Hess 

He starts to show you how to use it, how to work with it, how to deepen it, how to bring it into everything. 

Corey Hess 

You know, I think the Roshi. 

Corey Hess 

Young, remember him telling me to listen to the pots singing. 

Corey Hess 

You know this is my my homework, you know? 

Corey Hess 

And dumb as I was in the kitchen. 

Corey Hess 

And just like that, you know so. 

Corey Hess 

Then the process. 

Corey Hess 

Of of the training is really letting that deep and letting that deep and learning how to refine that. 

Corey Hess 

Learning how to. 

Corey Hess 

Actualize that all the time. 

Corey Hess 

Uhm, you know and I for for a lot of us. 

Corey Hess 

You know this. 

Corey Hess 

Our stuff is a lot of our stuff is kind of there, but we’re coming from this other perspective and. 

Corey Hess 

And that’s just so profoundly different. 

Corey Hess 

Like my big question was gone, my big need to discover it. 

Berry Crawford 

OK. 

Corey Hess 

It wasn’t there anymore. 

Corey Hess 

It wasn’t going to be separate from my experience. 

Corey Hess 

Like ever again, you know. 

Berry Crawford 

So a definite sense of resolution for you. 

Corey Hess 

Resolution for me, you know, and then you know. 

Corey Hess 

Obviously though, the training hard you know, and they they can throw. 

Corey Hess 

You know the coin. 

Corey Hess 

They’re like they like throw thorns in your eye, yeah, so it’s hard, you know, But yes, fundamentally, yeah. 

Corey Hess 

That was when a big big shift for me. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, yeah. 

Berry Crawford 

What would you say your relationship to emotions have changed? 

Berry Crawford 

You know, let’s say. 

Berry Crawford 

You know, let’s say something. 

Berry Crawford 

Unfortunate happens to one of your children. 

Berry Crawford 

You know what? 

Berry Crawford 

What is your emotional relation to to that situation? 

Berry Crawford 

That maybe would be differently. 

Berry Crawford 

Or maybe the same after the opening. 

Berry Crawford 

If that question makes sense at all, do you understand what I’m getting that at all? 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, yeah. 

Corey Hess 

Uhm, well I’m I’m. 

Corey Hess 

I’m very very scared of or sad if my my kids get hurt or something that’s for sure. 

Corey Hess 

I I there’s no that’s you know what? 

Corey Hess 

Do they always? 

Corey Hess 

My youngest asked me what’s? 

Corey Hess 

Your what’s your worst thing when you get hurt? 

Corey Hess 

That’s my answer, you know, so I’m bad, I’m. 

Corey Hess 

You know? 

Corey Hess 

I would say that my relationship with everything is is not. 

Corey Hess 

It was a sense of struggle. 

Corey Hess 

Everything that I encountered was a sense of struggle before I had kind of again touched this. 

Corey Hess 

This kind of real place my my sense of the present moment I was. 

Corey Hess 

Struggling with it so. 

Corey Hess 

Regularly and so everything is like that now. 

Corey Hess 

So everything I encounter. 

Corey Hess 

You’re you’re in this place of directly touching it directly. 

Corey Hess 

You know, on top of it, the present moment. 

Corey Hess 

You’re not outside of it, in the same way that for me I kind of was. 

Corey Hess 

I felt like I was. 

Corey Hess 

My there was a Bramble of of perception in between what I was living you know? 

Corey Hess 

So so if my yeah I think it problems I encounter. 

Corey Hess 

I think what it does is. 

Corey Hess 

It makes you really really fresh. 

Corey Hess 

So you’re, you’re mad, you’re mad fully, you’re sad you’re bubbling with tears you know there isn’t that filter in the way that. 

Corey Hess 

You know? 

Corey Hess 

That and so that can be a little tricky time for a lot. 

Corey Hess 

You know, for us, for a while we’re we’re just kind of raw for a while we we don’t have a lot of skills for a while. 

Corey Hess 

When you have some kind of opening like that, you don’t. 

Corey Hess 

You’re not real. 

Corey Hess 

Skillful for a while, you’re you’re directly on top of everything you’re doing and so. 

Berry Crawford 

Did you catch any arrogance or sense of pride? 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, I mean for sure, no. 

Berry Crawford 

It’s aftermath. 

Corey Hess 

I mean, that’s what’s so great about the training too. 

Corey Hess 

Is you know you? 

Corey Hess 

You feel pretty wonderful. 

Corey Hess 

You feel something wonderful. 

Corey Hess 

I would say I’m I’m kind of a. 

Corey Hess 

They’re just part of me, that’s real. 

Corey Hess 

I have this. 

Corey Hess 

There’s a certain honesty about my process that. 

Corey Hess 

That’s there. 

Corey Hess 

What I would also say is that it didn’t fix everything OK, and So what it does is it it it? 

Corey Hess 

It speeds up a lot of our stuff, so physical stuff, our energetic stuff. 

Corey Hess 

It really puts it in. 

Corey Hess 

Emotion so you know for me I I can’t come after all those all that experience it I couldn’t ever look away from it. 

Corey Hess 

It’s it if I do I suffer, I have. 

Corey Hess 

I mean it’s better now, but at first you can’t take your eyes off of it then or or step away from it. 

Corey Hess 

That keeps you very. 

Corey Hess 

Honest keeps you very like clear with what where you are. 

Corey Hess 

It’s like a, you know getting hit by lightning and then you can’t lie. 

Corey Hess 

Like step halfway out of it, it just it doesn’t you get fried you, you know. 

Corey Hess 

So it’s it’s very much like that. 

Corey Hess 

The body really reacts to this big opening and then you have to work with it for a long time to refine it and make it harmonious. 

Berry Crawford 

Do you? 

Berry Crawford 

Do you find your relationship to conditioning and trauma has changed at all? 

Berry Crawford 

Or is that still there? 

Berry Crawford 

Is that? 

Berry Crawford 

Do you feel like the spiritual awakening is on the same level as like psychological trauma? 

Berry Crawford 

And conditioning or or do you feel like those are separate dimensions? 

Berry Crawford 

Or do you think they work? 

Berry Crawford 

Kind of like on the same level? 

Berry Crawford 

I’m not really being very helpful way I’m asking this but. 

Corey Hess 

I know what you mean. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, I think like the big question is kind of gone, but there’s a lot of details there that I think people can just act like they’re not there and that’s that’s not ******** 

Corey Hess 

So the I think it really helps because it brings you this clarity to be able to touch what’s happening faster, clearer. 

Corey Hess 

And be able to meet what’s happening, but I think we still have to work on a lot of our stuff. 

Corey Hess 

Honestly, you know, you know. 

Corey Hess 

We we have to. 

Corey Hess 

Like and and and again the the process makes you have to be honest or you start to lock up. 

Corey Hess 

That’s in my experience you can’t like. 

Corey Hess 

You can’t deny reality because reality is is is moving through you in this certain way that if you’re kind of blocking it or avoiding it, it doesn’t really let you do that. 

Corey Hess 

It will you. 

Corey Hess 

You get sick. 

Corey Hess 

That’s my experience. 

Berry Crawford 

Do you think it’s fair to say? 

Berry Crawford 

That awakening kind of resolves things more like on the existential level and not so much at. 

Berry Crawford 

The psychological level we. 

Corey Hess 

I think it. 

Corey Hess 

I think it does both, but I think still we’ve got a long time to integrate. 

Corey Hess 

We need to integrate for a long time. 

Corey Hess 

You know, like I think it does, both, you know, but I I do feel like we got a lot of jagged stuff there that still needs working on we’re, you know, and and I would say that’s that they call integrating. 

Corey Hess 

You know ripening to say good embryo. 

Corey Hess 

All that stuff is is part of just. 

Corey Hess 

You know, refining, harmonizing, bringing it all into actualization. 

Corey Hess 

So, so I think that’s a lot of our task and a lot of our task. 

Corey Hess 

As you know, people in the world out here is. 

Corey Hess 

Is to be? 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, working on that stuff and. 

Corey Hess 

Being healthy and being helpful because of that, you know. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, you see, like. 

Berry Crawford 

So sorry. 

Berry Crawford 

So so it sounds like not too far after this you got ordained, is that correct? 

Corey Hess 

Not too far after that I got ordained. 

Berry Crawford 

Was this did you ask or were you offered or? 

Berry Crawford 

You know what? 

Berry Crawford 

What was the what was the process there? 

Corey Hess 

I all I asked in what? 

Corey Hess 

I asked, I offered something but yeah, they I I. 

Corey Hess 

I brought it up and. 

Corey Hess 

What happened was for me it was dumb. 

Corey Hess 

You know, like a guy like me who came from UM. 

Corey Hess 

You know no one had ever heard of Zen, except you know, some maybe one movie or something they mentioned or whatever they think of it now. 

Corey Hess 

But I like me who was just a normal sensitive. 

Corey Hess 

Guy burning too hot. 

Corey Hess 

Uhm, you know for for this training to really come. 

Corey Hess 

Change me, open me up and and then see it really had profoundly helped me. 

Corey Hess 

I got ordained partly just as a statement like this. 

Corey Hess 

Is this is? 

Corey Hess 

Real this this can really change people. 

Corey Hess 

This is powerful. 

Corey Hess 

And also I I planned on staying. 

Corey Hess 

With the Roshi longer and then he wanted me to be a. 

Corey Hess 

A teacher at some point. 

Corey Hess 

But but 

Berry Crawford 

Did you so, as part of your ordination process? 

Berry Crawford 

Did you work on the precepts at all? 

Berry Crawford 

Was there any sort of analytical? 

Berry Crawford 

Look at the precepts or I mean, did you have signs in about the precepts? 

Berry Crawford 

I mean was this discussed? 

Corey Hess 

A little bit, but not too much, and you know of course, the the. 

Corey Hess 

The the preset koans are are are are later on. 

Corey Hess 

I hadn’t done those but. 

Corey Hess 

No, not too much of that. 

Corey Hess 

Not too much of that. 

Berry Crawford 

When you took the precepts was. 

Berry Crawford 

It in English or Japanese. 

Corey Hess 

English some English, some Japanese. 

Corey Hess 

It’s kind. 

Berry Crawford 

Yeah was it? 

Corey Hess 

Of a mixed there. 

Berry Crawford 

Was it 16 precepts? 

Berry Crawford 

Like we do in soda or. 

Corey Hess 

I can’t remember, but I had already done jukai. 

Berry Crawford 

Oh, you did you do 5 previously? 

Corey Hess 

He died once before was a couple of years before so. 

Berry Crawford 

OK. 

Corey Hess 

I had done yeah so. 

Berry Crawford 

Oh, OK. 

Corey Hess 

I kind of had gone through all that and then the ordination. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, I don’t. 

Corey Hess 

It’s a whirlwind at this point, but I can’t remember exactly some. 

Corey Hess 

Some of those details, but you know, I was so fully in it was so like, you know. 

Corey Hess 

I was I was. 

Corey Hess 

You know all hands on deck for sure. 

Berry Crawford 

He thought this was. 

Berry Crawford 

Your your career at this point. 

Corey Hess 

Yes and and and I wanted to give give myself to the rochie and give myself. 

Corey Hess 

To the Dharma and again try to be helpful and my karma did change and I I came back and now I have a family and all that but I I again I kind of feel I very much feel that I’m still kind of expressing that in in just like a different, slightly different medium. 

Berry Crawford 

Uhm, I want to respect your time and let you go pretty soon, but I want to ask you a few. 

Berry Crawford 

More questions about the Cohen process, if that’s alright. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, yeah. 

Berry Crawford 

So so after you got through the checking questions for mu. 

Berry Crawford 

Uhm, would he assign you a a koan verbally and you have to memorize it? 

Berry Crawford 

Or you know? 

Berry Crawford 

Or did you know like the next the next go on? 

Berry Crawford 

Like did you have a list or you know, like how, how would. 

Berry Crawford 

I know this is kind of a tedious but like what, what, what like? 

Berry Crawford 

How are you actually assigned to cone? 

Corey Hess 

It’s a good question. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, the I think the rochie having having foreigners. 

Corey Hess 

He actually gives you a piece of paper. 

Berry Crawford 

OK. 

Corey Hess 

Gives you piece paper. 

Corey Hess 

He has it behind him, he’s. 

Corey Hess 

Got a slick. 

Corey Hess 

And it kind of brings it out. 

Berry Crawford 

So there’s like the quarry pile. 

Berry Crawford 

And then the. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah yeah yeah, you know. 

Corey Hess 

And to be honest there there aren’t a lot of people. 

Corey Hess 

There aren’t a lot of people there who are doing, you know, advanced practice. 

Corey Hess 

It’s it’s really hard. 

Corey Hess 

You know, most people in the monastery, there you know. 

Corey Hess 

So he might be. 

Corey Hess 

Has you know, a couple pieces of paper behind him, you know? 

Corey Hess 

Not there I’m handing out 30 pieces of paper. 

Corey Hess 

Good you know. 

Corey Hess 

So people, it’s it’s. 

Corey Hess 

It’s a profound practice, the the the beginning practices. 

Corey Hess 

That’s where most people are. 

Corey Hess 

Those most people stay there. 

Corey Hess 

And then they they leave often before they get too far into that stuff. 

Corey Hess 

So you got a couple pieces of paper behind. 

Berry Crawford 

Him so when you came back, are you expected to have memorized your koan, like ’cause some of them are pretty long, you know? 

Corey Hess 

Nasty, I know. 

Berry Crawford 

Right, but is that the I mean? 

Berry Crawford 

Is that the expectation that you can recite the entire thing before your presentation or? 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, you’re supposed to and you can. 

Corey Hess 

You know if you need to, you can bring it in. 

Corey Hess 

And cheat cheat. 

Corey Hess 

And you know. 

Corey Hess 

I had I had really no thumb. 

Corey Hess 

I wasn’t I’m I’m not a scholar and I I he wasn’t thinking Corey is gonna be each again is going to be like. 

Corey Hess 

Come this, this perfect Japanese monk, so I never really felt that expectation from him that I would do everything perfectly. 

Corey Hess 

So we were doing this beautiful work, but sometimes I would have a piece of paper or I I would memorize if they were mostly not try to memorize, but I will bring up a piece of paper if I needed to. 

Corey Hess 

And and then. 

Corey Hess 

Later you get these these jacquou go these poems. 

Corey Hess 

They’re bringing a poem I I bring that on a piece of paper ’cause it’s you know, archaic language, you know? 

Berry Crawford 

I’m I’m gonna get to that in a second so, but so when you would do the presentation of your colon. 

Berry Crawford 

Yeah, well, sometimes you do the same presentation. 

Berry Crawford 

Any but no, but then you do the same presentation and they’ll pass you like did you? 

Berry Crawford 

Have those type of experiences. 

Berry Crawford 

Or like if you got the presentation down where you pretty much. 

Berry Crawford 

We’re pretty much good to go. 

Corey Hess 

No I. 

Berry Crawford 

Mean it’s? 

Berry Crawford 

I mean at that point is like how much of it was still an energy and a resonance thing is maybe a better way. 

Berry Crawford 

To ask the question, yeah. 

Corey Hess 

100%. 

Corey Hess 

100% and then anything you did was dumb. 

Corey Hess 

Was dumb, yeah, I mean that was. 

Corey Hess 

That that was he knows when you, when you when you walk in the door then clear. And so I I mean yeah, I mean maybe maybe not, 100 maybe 95. 

Corey Hess 

You know you fall on the ground or something, but but he already knows you know so. 

Corey Hess 

But yeah, I think you can. 

Corey Hess 

You can bring in a right? 

Corey Hess 

Answer and if you’re not, if he doesn’t feel it. 

Corey Hess 

If he’s not feeling that. 

Corey Hess 

That sense of a cool guy, this energetic. 

Corey Hess 

Uh flavor then no way and and if you’re coming with any mental understanding, he just will ring you out immediately. 

Corey Hess 

So you you’re basically, you just get blasted into this receptive mode. 

Corey Hess 

It’s over and over. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, it’s a. 

Corey Hess 

It’s a. 

Corey Hess 

It’s a weird, beautiful, beautiful process and I I have a you know a lot to say about that, but. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, you start to come from this completely different place of interacting, and that’s what’s so powerful about the cone. 

Corey Hess 

The answers, I think are are really. 

Corey Hess 

Uhm, not that important. 

Corey Hess 

The what you start you start to come from this. 

Corey Hess 

This other place of interacting of of wisdom that comes through when you when you stop reaching out. 

Corey Hess 

Stop trying to figure everything out and it’s. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, it’s it’s such a beautiful venue in there. 

Corey Hess 

Yeah, yeah. 

Berry Crawford 

And so, so after a successful presentation, you expect it to come in with your next sons in with a Jack. 

Berry Crawford 

You go right? 

Corey Hess 

He’ll tell you, he tell you. 

Corey Hess 

Bring in a bring out, he tell you. 

Berry Crawford 

And so would you enter. 

Berry Crawford 

That is this before Zen sand existed? 

Berry Crawford 

Like how did you actually like what was like? 

Berry Crawford 

Did you have a stack of books or? 

Corey Hess 

Who’s right there when Zen Sand was was done? 

Berry Crawford 

OK. 

Corey Hess 

Yep, so I I got. 

Corey Hess 

I got in the beginning of Zen sand. 

Corey Hess 

Yep, so I, you know I’d be back there, you know. 

Corey Hess 

Going through it really. 

Corey Hess 

Fast at 2:00 AM, you know? 

Berry Crawford 

So you you didn’t do this, and this is during your your free. 

Berry Crawford 

Your free time is when you’re expected to to do this right? 

Corey Hess 

Yep, Yep. 

Berry Crawford 

Yeah, so you still. 

Berry Crawford 

Keep the regular schedule for dissolves in and can retract us and so forth. 

Berry Crawford 

And but and then when you have downtime. 

Berry Crawford 

Then you look through those. 

Corey Hess 

You know, So what you do? 

Corey Hess 

What you end up doing is like say there’s a. 

Corey Hess 

There’s a 3:00 PM signs in so in in the OH session, so everybody runs up to sons and and you you take a right and you run up to the kitchen and you jump on in’s insane and you know you’re looking through there for 10 minutes and then you try to grab grab one and it’s not right when you grab it and then. 

Corey Hess 

You run in back into the Kojo and you you take it in and. 

Corey Hess 

Just he laughs at you. 

Corey Hess 

You know, laughs at you and and then, so it’s like that you’re you’re kind of, you know, looking it up, sneak sneak in a look here and there. 

Berry Crawford 

Yeah, so you know I I do horns and the the white plum tradition which is, you know my zoomy Rosie Yasutani and and as you probably know we don’t do capping phrases at all and so I’m curious like what what do you think the capping phrase adds to the equation? 

Berry Crawford 

Like what like? 

Berry Crawford 

How would I articulate this? 

Berry Crawford 

Like like what are you getting like? 

Berry Crawford 

What does it add to the process that you feel might be missing from a a quant curriculum that doesn’t use them is a just more resonance with? 

Berry Crawford 

With the spirit of the Quran or you know like what what is the hook there? 

Corey Hess 

OK, so uhm. 

Corey Hess 

So for my experience. 

Corey Hess 

Of what happens with the colon is that you. 

Corey Hess 

With the Roshi you start to learn to come from this place of of having no idea what’s going on, and then wisdom comes from that. 

Corey Hess 

So he starts to kind of come out. 

Corey Hess 

Of that and. 

Corey Hess 

And that’s what happens with the Rochie and sons in, and then later that’s what happens with the MU and then later. 

Corey Hess 

That’s what happens with the the Cohen is that you you become receptive to this Cohen and then. 

Corey Hess 

That receptivity this koan starts to work on you and change you and then. 

Corey Hess 

Treat so you’re moving from this place of unknown and then that and then from there wisdom blossoms out of that. 

Corey Hess 

OK and and. 

Corey Hess 

And so with the colon often, what will happen is you’re you’re working with it. 

Corey Hess 

You’re working with. 

Corey Hess 

It and then. 

Corey Hess 

Uhm, something will start to emerge out of that process in some. 

Corey Hess 

Oh, some something happening and it it comes through. 

Corey Hess 

And then you you come in and again, you’re you’re goes home and you know you’re doing a colon with goals goes ahead and you’re actually goes to whole and when you walk in there, oh. 

Corey Hess 

She sees. 

Corey Hess 

There’s goes home and and and he’s. 

Corey Hess 

OK, bring in ago. 

Corey Hess 

Bring in a Jack who go and and so you do and you you go and you read that book and you’re looking through it. 

Corey Hess 

You’re looking through it, and none of this makes sense. 

Corey Hess 

None of it’s hitting me shut, you know, and then you’re going. 

Corey Hess 

You’re going and going. 

Corey Hess 

And then there’s one and it makes no sense. 

Corey Hess 

But it kind of like you break out. 

Corey Hess 

Ah, you know, something just happened. 

Corey Hess 

Like what is that in it? 

Corey Hess 

Such you’ve gone further into that mystery with it so that that unknown has blossomed further from the Jack logo so that it takes you further into this gone into the IT clarified more this this and so you bring that. 

Corey Hess 

You know, and it it might not actually be always the perfect one, but it’s really close you. 

Corey Hess 

Know you can kind of dumb. 

Corey Hess 

OK, not good, but OK do another one. 

Berry Crawford 

Good enough. 

Corey Hess 

Let’s let’s so it gives you another piece of paper you know, and so you go on to the next coin. 

Corey Hess 

So it that’s my experience. 

Corey Hess 

It takes you. 

Corey Hess 

Further into this. 

Corey Hess 

Clarified wisdom of unknown. 

OK. 

Berry Crawford 

So we’re we’re. 

Berry Crawford 

At 70 minutes, or actually 80 minutes into the so can can we have you back and we could talk about? 

Berry Crawford 

Uhm, you leaving the monastery and your work. 

Berry Crawford 

You know after that and so forth. 

Berry Crawford 

Yeah, I, I know you have a class coming up and I I want to respect your time. 

Corey Hess 

Well, thanks, yeah let’s do it. 

Berry Crawford 

OK, great really Christian, could you? 

Berry Crawford 

So if anyone wants to get in touch with you about your classes or just to debug you on Facebook Messenger, you know what’s what’s the best way to get in touch with you? 

Corey Hess 

Uhm, yeah, so you can go to my my. 

Corey Hess 

Website corrias body therapy. 

Corey Hess 

I also have this group. 

Corey Hess 

I have a couple groups on Facebook but one is this internal process with Corey Hess and that’s my bigger group for people all doing my classes and I would join that if I were you. 

Corey Hess 

Uhm, it’s it’s really. 

Corey Hess 

It’s really a wonderful group and then we have a a deeper group that does the intensives together and we’re we have a messenger group that we all shaddan often and we do these. 

Corey Hess 

We’re always kind of working together in these rooms all day long actually. 

Corey Hess 

This is tight. 

 Berry Crawford 

You you guys sit together. 

Berry Crawford 

Or is it all fit body work? 

Corey Hess 

It spitting yeah no, it’s it’s it’s all that and it it’s really I’ve been surprised it’s been really cool and and then I have this blog. 

Corey Hess 

That’s where a lot of people started got to know me and the beating was this then embodiment. 

Corey Hess 

Dot com and that’s where first people started to. 

Corey Hess 

Somehow find out about me, so that’s a way to to to do it. 

Corey Hess 

But yeah, no, I’m happy to be helpful if I can be so yeah. 

Berry Crawford 

Thank you so much, I really appreciate your time. 

Corey Hess 

Oh, thank you. 

Corey Hess 

OK uhm yeah good good to chat with you. 

Corey Hess 

Thanks so much. 

Berry Crawford 

Thank you, have a great day. 

You do bye.